Engine SOS, camshaft SOS, SOS at all!!!

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gasoline_junkie
Polski Fiat 126p FL
Szekesfehervar, Hungary

2008-01-22 19:20:10

Hi there!

My name is Pete, I'm from Hungary, and I'm knee-deep in an engine-modifying project, but I had to face several problems which are hard to solve without your help.
I build an 800 cc engine with VW Bug cylinders (nearly the same way as I saw on Denior's page), but unfortunately I couldn't translate the text, so I got information only by the pictures. (I've bought the cylinder set, and made the welding of the block already.)
The critical point is that I don't know what to do with the crankshaft. Is it necessary to get a BIS shaft, or can I build it with a stock one?
Do I have to modify something on the crankshaft?

The other problem is the camshaft. I have bought a polish made sport camshaft called Duet, but I haven't got any information of it's characteristics. Please help! Lotta' thanx in advance!

ISO-lator
F&F Sympatyk
Fiat 126p x3
Tomaszów Maz.

2008-01-23 08:53:55

Yuo need BIS 700cc crankshaft, due to specific counterweight, BIS crankshaft has thight counterweight in outer (from center axis) part, this will allow crankshaft to spin between the pistons, there is also possibility, you need to cutout cylinder parts to counterweight, same as in 650 cylinders, but i'm not 100% sure.

gasoline_junkie
Polski Fiat 126p FL
Szekesfehervar, Hungary

2008-01-23 23:31:52

Cytat:

2008-01-23 08:53:55, ISO-lator pisze:
Yuo need BIS 700cc crankshaft, due to specific counterweight, BIS crankshaft has thight counterweight in outer (from center axis) part, this will allow crankshaft to spin between the pistons, there is also possibility, you need to cutout cylinder parts to counterweight, same as in 650 cylinders, but i'm not 100% sure.

Yes, I see now. Thanks a lot!

Can it cause a problem if I build in a used BIS crankshaft? I just ask this because here in Hungary new BIS parts are really hard to find. Is it available as new in Poland? And is it expensive?

ISO-lator
F&F Sympatyk
Fiat 126p x3
Tomaszów Maz.

2008-01-24 08:56:37

Yes, there is no problem to use used bis crankshaft, but remember to check the bearings and bearing journals, in Poland BIS camshaft i mostly available i cost ~60€, there is a posibility to use Cinquecento 700 crankshaft, but you need to modify main bearing journal on cam side, it should be the same as 650 and 700BIS crankshaft, in other way you'll notice major problems with oil pressure.

gasoline_junkie
Polski Fiat 126p FL
Szekesfehervar, Hungary

2008-01-25 11:12:33

Cytat:

2008-01-24 08:56:37, ISO-lator pisze:
Yes, there is no problem to use used bis crankshaft, but remember to check the bearings and bearing journals, in Poland BIS camshaft i mostly available i cost ~60€, there is a posibility to use Cinquecento 700 crankshaft, but you need to modify main bearing journal on cam side, it should be the same as 650 and 700BIS crankshaft, in other way you'll notice major problems with oil pressure.

You just have answered the question which i wanted to ask now.

I called a sparepart-importer to ask for BIS shaft, but he said that the new BIS crankshaft is priced really high (nearly 2x expensive than the stock 650 shaft), and on top of it, they only send it for order in an uncertain time. (Maybe a week, maybe two months.) But he offered brand new Cinquecento 700 crankshaft on a really good price. So I just wanted to ask this, but you have already answered it.

On the modification of the journal d'you mean that section which connected to the V-belt pulley on the end of the shaft? Are the other sections of the shaft totally compatible with the 650 engine? (I mean flywheel, bearings, etc.)

ISO-lator
F&F Sympatyk
Fiat 126p x3
Tomaszów Maz.

2008-01-25 19:35:13

No. there are some major differences between 650/700BIS and CC700 crankshafts:
- there is blind hole in pulley rod, so uyo need to drill out an opening, 12-14mm in diameter.
- you need pulley screw from CC700 wich has M12x1.5 thread (650/700, has M12x1.25 thread)
- next you need to drill out an opening in pulley screw, it should be 10mm in diameter, aligned centraly
- the final state is pulley rod, it's 10mm longer then 650/700BIS, so it need to be cut, also there should be some grooves on it, same as in 650/700BIS.

As for BIS crankshaft it's "plug&play"

gasoline_junkie
Polski Fiat 126p FL
Szekesfehervar, Hungary

2008-01-25 23:23:56

Cytat:

2008-01-25 19:35:13, ISO-lator pisze:
No. there are some major differences between 650/700BIS and CC700 crankshafts: - there is blind hole in pulley rod, so uyo need to drill out an opening, 12-14mm in diameter. - you need pulley screw from CC700 wich has M12x1.5 thread (650/700, has M12x1.25 thread) - next you need to drill out an opening in pulley screw, it should be 10mm in diameter, aligned centraly - the final state is pulley rod, it's 10mm longer then 650/700BIS, so it need to be cut, also there should be some grooves on it, same as in 650/700BIS. As for BIS crankshaft it's "plug&play"

Hmmm, well, this doesn't seem to be impossible.

I think I'll try it. Some of my friends tried to put a BIS crankshaft into a 650 engine, but it was not "plug and play" at all. They had problems around the flywheel, but maybe just they did a mistake. Well, drilling, and getting that pulley screw won't be a problem. And just another: could I use the pulley of CC700. 'Cuz the idea is: I have some parts of the Marelli Nanoplex ignition (from an ELX or whatever), but I don't have the TDC sensor and engine speed sensor yet. As far as I know each of them is placed on the pulley. So if I had the pulley, I would have no problem, with this sensor.
Or is this bullshit? (Unfortunately I didn't saw CC700 yet, 'cuz here in Hungary there are no cars like that, only the 900cc versions.)

ISO-lator
F&F Sympatyk
Fiat 126p x3
Tomaszów Maz.

2008-01-26 01:25:49

As for the flywheel, it's better to use BIS flywheel, if you want to use Nanoplex, you could use el/elx pulley, the Hall sensor is mounted on engine block (under engine number), pulley had only a mark on it.

pavlus (S)
Furious Moderator
126p | 125p
Kraków

2008-01-26 14:39:39

Cytat:

2008-01-22 19:20:10, gasoline_junkie pisze:
I have bought a polish made sport camshaft called Duet, but I haven't got any information of it's characteristics.

I'm afraid, that is not a sport camshaft, but 600 and old 650 type, Standard.
To be sure what camshaft you have, measure cam height, width, and substract, you will get cam lift. Write result and I tell you what is it.

gasoline_junkie
Polski Fiat 126p FL
Szekesfehervar, Hungary

2008-01-27 23:08:38

Cytat:

2008-01-26 01:25:49, ISO-lator pisze:
As for the flywheel, it's better to use BIS flywheel, if you want to use Nanoplex, you could use el/elx pulley, the Hall sensor is mounted on engine block (under engine number), pulley had only a mark on it.

Is BIS flywheel lighter than the 650 or are there some differences between them? I already have a lightened 650 flywheel, but I'll use BIS stuff if there are difficulties with mounting the 650 flywheel on the CC700 crankshaft.
Does the ignition has only one combined sensor on the crankshaft, or does it have two separate sensors for TDC and engine speed, just like the Marelli Digiplex? As far as I remember, there is kinda' inlet pressure sensor in this Nanoplex system, isn't it? I only saw once this stuff this summer in Zvolen on a polish car, but unfortunately I didn't remark everything. (Due to plenty of Becherovka.

)

gasoline_junkie
Polski Fiat 126p FL
Szekesfehervar, Hungary

2008-01-27 23:23:58

Cytat:

2008-01-26 14:39:39, pavlus pisze:
I'm afraid, that is not a sport camshaft, but 600 and old 650 type, Standard. To be sure what camshaft you have, measure cam height, width, and substract, you will get cam lift. Write result and I tell you what is it.

Thanx for answering for you too!

I'll measure the dimensions that you wrote, and I'll write 'em here. I think I'll link some photoes of it, to make easier the identification. It does not look like a stock standard camshaft, it shows some spectacular differences compared to a standard camshaft's profile. (It has higher lobes, with sharper profile, and the surface is not nitridated, but it's hardened with some other technology.) I think I'll link some photoes of its box too. The text on the box says: "Duet Sport".

gasoline_junkie
Polski Fiat 126p FL
Szekesfehervar, Hungary

2008-01-29 22:44:27

As I said, I took some photoes of the camshaft:

First one

Second one

And here are some images of its box:

Box 1.

Box 2.

(Please don't mind that helluva mess on my desk. It always looks like that.

)

I hope, we can geth further with this. Unfortunately I couldn't write the dimensions at the moment, 'cuz my brother took my measurement tool, but as soon as I get it back (and kick the boy in the butt as well

), I'll measure the shaft.

jaqo
F&F MEMBER
Aktywny na forum 7025 dni

126elx + C classe
Warszawa

2008-01-30 01:37:11

To tell you something about it, you have to give some dimensions.
P.S.
Show us some photos of your car

gasoline_junkie
Polski Fiat 126p FL
Szekesfehervar, Hungary

2008-01-30 22:46:07

Cytat:

2008-01-30 01:37:11, jaqo pisze:
To tell you something about it, you have to give some dimensions.
P.S. Show us some photos of your car

I'm on it, to measure its dimensions, but I'm afraid I cannot do it until the weekend.
I have uploaded some pictures 'bout my car when I registered in this forum, but they don't appear unfotunately. Here's my little gallery

There's nothing special with my car, but I'm working on it ...

Zuraw
Byl 126p 1.2MPI
Wawa

2008-01-31 00:27:41

Gasoline - Budapesten leszek februar 9.-en, elvihetek Neked komplett motort a BIS-hez huszezer forintert. Ha erdekel a dolog, kerlek irj, akar magyarul is a mi.zurawski@wp.pl email cimemre. A motor hasznalt motor, de nagyon jo allapotban van (csak tisztitasra var). Kerlek minel hamarabb jelezz vissza, hogy erdekel-e a dolog.

Udvozollek,
Zuraw

(in Polish):
Co znaczy tyle, ze bede na Wegrzech 9 lutego i moge mu zawiezc troche taili do bisa.

gasoline_junkie
Polski Fiat 126p FL
Szekesfehervar, Hungary

2008-02-01 20:42:38

Cytat:

2008-01-26 14:39:39, pavlus pisze:
I'm afraid, that is not a sport camshaft, but 600 and old 650 type, Standard. To be sure what camshaft you have, measure cam height, width, and substract, you will get cam lift. Write result and I tell you what is it.

Finally, I managed to get those dimensions. The base circle diameter is 26 mm, the overall lobe height is 33,6 mm, so the lift is 7,6 mm as I have calculated it. It seems to be a regrooved shaft, isn't it? (By the way, what do you mean on substract. How can I measure it?)

Zuraw!
I don't really need that block at the moment, but I'll ask some friends if they are interested. I'll send private email, and we'll discuss it. Anyway, thanks for the offer.

pavlus (S)
Furious Moderator
126p | 125p
Kraków

2008-02-18 20:43:18

It looks like copy of ours 295 camshaft:
295- time 295* - lobe lift 7,6 mm - valve lift 11,4 mm
its the best camshaft to use with standard gearbox.

there should be "subtract" (mathematical operation)

gasoline_junkie
Polski Fiat 126p FL
Szekesfehervar, Hungary

2008-02-18 23:20:40

Cytat:

2008-02-18 20:43:18, pavlus pisze:
It looks like copy of ours 295 camshaft: 295- time 295* - lobe lift 7,6 mm - valve lift 11,4 mm its the best camshaft to use with standard gearbox. there should be "subtract" (mathematical operation)

Ok, thanks! I think I'll like it. I had a hungarian-made racing camshaft before with 310° duration, but it was too radical for road use, and on the other hand it had smaller valve lift , and the surface wasn't nitridated, so I looked for another one. This 295 stuff should be better on lower revs.
I saw your homepage, and those sports camshafts look really interesting.(All of them.) Maybe some of my friends would like them too. Can you give me some information about them in private? Thanks!

gasoline_junkie
Polski Fiat 126p FL
Szekesfehervar, Hungary

2008-04-18 16:02:04

Hi all!

First of all, I'd like to thank y'all for helping so much. My 800cc engine is almost ready, finally it has the CC700 crankshaft assembled.

I also got the ELX ignition parts from Poland, but I've got some problems with the wiring. I have no wiring diagram, and I dont really have an idea how to do it. Can you help me again, please?

Should I order the standard wires of the ELX, or can I install the ignition system with DIY method?

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